Curse

Inureface · Jan 14, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

OK, every time I go to tombs its always the same:
ORDERS NECRO LFG
GLF 2 R3+ TRAPPERS
NEED 4 IWAY TANKS FOR (you guessed it) IWAY

I don't tombs much because of all this crap and the BS ranking system. I've
been watching alot of IWAY played by these guys and noticed a few things: Most will quit as soon as they fail to spike someone, their coordination really sucks, and half the guys don't even know what to do. So, I've been thinking of a build that might or might not work, so I need your input. I never had the chance to test it either (guild doesn't PvP much) so maybe we could get some guys to give it a go.

3 Trappers

R/N - 14 WS, 12 Expertise, 10 Curses - Barbed, Dust, and Spike Trap, Healing Spring, Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, free slot (plague touch?), and Rez Sig. This guy will be the warrior de-buffer, weakening and slowing their attacks.
R/Mo - 12 Healing Prayers, 16 Expertise - Healing Seed, Heal Area, Throw Dirt, Oath Shot, Natures Renewal, Predatory Season, Edge of Extinction, Light of Dwayna or some other rez. The idea behind this guy is to make the most use of healing skills that don't really work with divine favor and to set up lvl 0-2 spirits that will die very quickly and prevent your team from having to seperate to kill their spirits.
R/Mo - 16 WS, 13 Expertise - Barbed and Dust Trap, Throw Dirt, Martyr, Purge Conditions, Healing Spring, Apply Poison or Frozen Soil, and Light of Dwayna or another rez. Not too sure about this guy, since the only conditions will be deepwounds and disease (in beginning only).

2 Wards Elementalists

E/N - 14 Earth Magic, 12 Energy Storage, 10 Death Magic - Ward Against Melee, Ward Against Foes, Eruption, Aftershock, Well Of Suffering, Glyph of Energy, Earth Attunement, Rez Sig. This dude sets up wards, has the KD/AS stuff for when the KD warrior (mentioned later) uses earthshaker.

E/x - 16 Fire Magic, 13 Energy Storage - Fireball, Phoenix, Incindieary Bonds, Inferno, Meteor Shower, Rodgort's Invocation, Glyph of Energy, Rez Sig. Deals lots of AoE damage. Won't be effective if the guys run away.

1 Hammer Warrior

W/x - 14 Hammer Mastery, 12 Tactics, 11 Strength - Earth Shaker, Crude Swing, Crushing Blow, Desperation Blow, Healing Sig, Watch Yourself!, Flurry or Frenzy, and Rez Sig. This guy will do the KD stuff needed for a good AS spike from the earth ele. Other than that I have no clue what hes good for, maybe dump all the points in strength into tactics and just spam shouts or something.

2 Monks

Both Mo/R - 14 Healing Prayers, 12 Divine Favor, 10 WS - Healing Seed, Heal Area, Healing Touch, Divine Healing, Healing Spring, Peace and Harmony, Orison of Healing, Restore Life, or Rez Sig. AoE Healer, since everyone will be bunched up, you can maximize the effect from Divine Healing, Heal Area, err just about every spell in this guys skillbar.

Now I just looked at this build, and I see some BAD flaws, like wheres the DPS? When I thought of this build I was probably being too defensive, so any advice as to improving DPS or skill choice or roles of certain characters. The way this team will be played is everyone will bunch up into the wards and pick off the IWAY guys who step too close, if a trapper comes everyone just wand him and he'll be outta energy pretty fast (martyr also makes the traps mostly ineffective). Once the warriors and rangers are dead, just go off and kill the necros, they're mostly defenseless anyway. I hope to get some constructive input because I really want to try this build out in Tombs ^_^

Bloodweasel · Jan 14, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I'd suggest dropping the one of your elly (or even a ranger) choices for :-

E/Me > Airblinder
Air 16 ; 12+3+1
Energy 13 ; 12+1

Air Attune, LStrike, LOrb, ChainL (drop for Rez Sig of exhaustion worries you or the group needs), Enervating Charge, Blinding Flash, Epidemic, Thunderclap

Sit down with the basecamp (where the monks and wards are) and blunt the charge. Weaken and Blind the 1st Iway to hit the traps/wards and slow down. When his mates catch up, epidemic the Blind/Weak across them. Repeat EC/BF on the 1st warrior and TClap him. Now, when the warriors aren't on the ground they miss 90% and do much less damage when they do hit.

If the monks know how much you blunt the Iway Warriors they will keep the heals up. Your Warriors won't need the heals as they aren't getting damaged often.

All it takes is making the Iway come to the traps and wards. If they don't, slowly move the basecamp in their direction. March foward, set up camp and move to the perimeter. Make sure you move towards their caster base, where their Necros are hiding.

Added thought - Iways only use Rez Sigs. Anti Sig spells/sigs/hexs would throw them off.

art_ · Jan 14, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I think a prot monk is pretty much a must when facing IWAY. From my recent IWAY experience, things like Aegis and Guardian can be very annoying. Generally when i've been been IWAYing with PUGs (on the occasions when its a good group) its because the opposition has brought wards, protection prayers skills, and very importantly *Spiteful Spirit*

Seeing as a lot of IWAYers just attack thru SS its great damage. Obviously the best IWAY teams won't, but considering most IWAYs are random PUGs, theres a good chance they will kill each other when mobbing your ghostly/priest or whatever. IWAY normally doesnt bring hex removal (or at least doesn't use it) so SS can be very useful.

Traps area good idea, but only for during the fight because decent teams will bow their pets thru the traps anyway.

Maddie · Jan 14, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Wards + Guardian..

That is all I have to add against the whole anti-IWAY thing

Oh yea monks dont blow up.. Dont use spell too often you will blow yourself up. Do not ball up.. MS will catch you..

Patrograd · Jan 14, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddie

Wards + Guardian..

That is all I have to add against the whole anti-IWAY thing

Oh yea monks dont blow up.. Dont use spell too often you will blow yourself up. Do not ball up.. MS will catch you..

Channeling is just perfect for counter IWAY on a monk. Spam city plus huge energy regen from all those lovely pets.

Inureface · Jan 14, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Alright I'll rework the build and add or take out more stuff, thanks for all the advice so far.

Bloodweasel · Jan 16, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrograd

Channeling is just perfect for counter IWAY on a monk. Spam city plus huge energy regen from all those lovely pets.

Forgive me if i am wrong, but Channeling relies on being actively hit, yes? So when the Pets are dead and the IWAY really hits high gear (maxxing bonuses from dead pets) then the Channeling suddenly losses it massive effect. Whereas my Airblinder is still (provided the monks heal him) weakening, blinding and KDing the boosted IWAY Warriors. Even 1 IWAY ( with all dead Pets/Pary except Necros) is a force to be worried about, especially at a late close battle. It doesn't matter how fast he swings if he can't hit.

1 mega boosted IWAY Warrior and his Necro (your pick) vs my Airblinder and a Support (you pick heal or prot) Monk makes for an interesting fight. I look foward to a gamemaths expert to run numbers but - If the Warrior attacks the Airblinder 1 on 1 then he gets blinded and weakened before he arrives, so misses 90% or does piteful damage while he gets Tclaped, then gets spiked while he is on the ground.

I really want to know (cos the matchs have never lasted long enough) if pet and player bodies vanish over time. I assume not or there would be now way of rezzing them, specially with Necros corpseabusing. Unless the used bodies are moved back to the shrine. This would give a huge defence advantage unless the bodies were not counted as being at the shrine except for Rez location.

Elrodien · Jan 16, 2006, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodweasel

Forgive me if i am wrong, but Channeling relies on being actively hit, yes?

You are forgiven, but you are wrong. Channeling steals 1 energy per enemy around you each time you cast a spell. I am not sure of the range but its less than your aggro circle. This is why I tend to go Drain Enchantment and Inspired Hex for my energy supplies these days (its just to dangerous standing beside all those stoopid tanks).

And for what its worth, to beat Iway you need, in my opinion, a SS necro, a warder and 2 trappers, with mesmer secondaries scattered throught the team ( empathy, soothing visage etc).

Bloodweasel · Jan 16, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

You are forgiven, but you are wrong. Channeling steals 1 energy per enemy around you each time you cast a spell. I am not sure of the range but its less than your aggro circle.

OK, I looked and you are right. But then it hardly matters to my point. Channelling still relies on alive enemies to be there before you get energy. When you kill the opposition pets/players, your energy source dries up, wheresas their bonuses increase. You get power from alive enemies, they get power form dead allies.

On the other hand, my Airblinder build (forgive me if it has been done already, I haven't seen it, at least not in this context) is effective against multiple grouped attackers and not needing to Epidemic the Weak/Blind saves 15 energy when they are done to 1 attacker. He also counter single rangers as the BFlash and ECharge have fast recycle. At the same time he carries most of the standard Airspike skills meaning he has damage potental. Play style comes in as to when to swap from full blunt to spike damage. As all the skills are Air, with low cost anyway, the Attune makes for loads of energy to blunt AND spike.

This is all included in one Character package. One slight mod to a Balanced Team and it has a big boost to its anti IWAY/Warrior Heavy potential, rather than trying to take a whole dedicated Anti-IWAY team. This means you have a better overall chance, given the currant predominance of IWAYs.

Divinus Stella · Jan 16, 2006, 11:39 AM // 11:39

IWAY is easy enough to beat without special builds, taking all anti iway just means your gonna get shot down by the first balanced build you see.

yesitsrob · Jan 16, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Channeling is a god send vs IWAY, I love it when my Orison nets in energy so I can spam heal party. Wards, aegis and traps help a ton... without at least one of them you'll probably end up in a bit of trouble. Healing Seed is great too, would be even more effective if it wasn't for that red engine gore natures renewal, which really needs to be taken care of. Killing the N/Mo gets rid of orders, not always the easiest of tasks since he's normally way away.

A low level Sympathetic Visage is enough for them to lose all adrenaline, I really don't think a dedicated IWAY counter is needed, but warrior hate definitely is.

Your trappers need to be R/Me with resolve, or be running whirling defense + oath shot... you won't get a trap off otherwise. Conditions are great against them, since they don't have martyrs or restore.

Bloodweasel · Jan 16, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Channeling is a god send vs IWAY, I love it when my Orison nets in energy so I can spam heal party...

Great in the start/mid game, when you all of them are alive and so are all your party if you are good. But they are planning on dying, or at least the pets then you get less energy to cast that party heal. And as they get faster and your party take damage faster and die, the total effect of party heal diminishes. Party heal on 1 or 2 characters isn't very efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

A low level Sympathetic Visage is enough for them to lose all adrenaline, I really don't think a dedicated IWAY counter is needed, but warrior hate definitely is.

Specific Anti anything groups will get you nailed when you fight a well rounded, well played Balanced. But I agree, counter warrior is good. 2 equally built Warriors facing off is fairly random, so give them a support to break the deadlock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Your trappers need to be R/Me with resolve, or be running whirling defense + oath shot... you won't get a trap off otherwise. Conditions are great against them, since they don't have martyrs or restore.

Weaken and Blind are conditions... Enervating Charge and Blinding Flash are ranged, fast to cast and recharge and provide both these conditions. Sure, you get no cripple like traps can, but then the KD from TClap is equivilent.
Pros compared to traps; Active ranged attack that doesn't put the user in immediate danger. Faster individual cast time and recycle. TClap KDs despite target moveing away
and Cons; Requires Epidemic to Condition groups. Time of use more critical as traps automatically trigger. Primary target requires 2nd application as Epidemic removes his Conditions to spread them.

Kabale · Jan 16, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

OK, I looked and you are right. But then it hardly matters to my point. Channelling still relies on alive enemies to be there before you get energy. When you kill the opposition pets/players, your energy source dries up, wheresas their bonuses increase. You get power from alive enemies, they get power form dead allies.

I don't understand your logic here... the point at which Channelling is reduced in effectiveness is when the opposition is nearly wiped out. Throughout an IWAY match, you're bound to have people attacking you, meaning you can spam heals like crazy, even to the last few warriors (unless they're not attacking monks, in which case they're dumb). When they're dead, the need to heal people will be reduced, meaning less energy is required...

Bloodweasel...your character is completely useless against any other team as there will be monks removing conditions/your thunderclap. All it takes is for someone to say they've got thunderclap on them and it will be removed a.s.a.p. Thunderclap/epidemic/enervating charge are all pretty horrible. Blinding flash is useful against rspike but that's about it...

SaintGreg · Jan 16, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Having an anti-caster is nice against iway. For example you can completely take the tainted necro out of the picture, which is where the ugliness of IWAY really comes from. Theres nothing worse than well of profane on an altar battle when you are fighting iway. Or with two anti-casters you can completely trash both necros. Mega backfire works well here, but so would migraine/conjure with interrupts. And anti-casters help against any tombs group...

I agree that channeling is really powerful, not just against IWAY but against most tombs groups where maps tend to encourage close quarters fighting.

Farin · Jan 16, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

One or two warrior Hate necros, a Warder, chained Aegis monk backline, a trapper and a warrior should be enough.

Quote:

and Cons; Requires Epidemic to Condition groups

Just.. lol..

Inureface · Jan 16, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Alright, I dumped the build completely and hopped on this 3 mes 5 trapper group. We did pretty good against other groups and against IWAY. w00t for 15 fame

Robster Lobster · Jan 17, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodweasel

I'd suggest dropping the one of your elly (or even a ranger) choices for :-

E/Me > Airblinder
Air 16 ; 12+3+1
Energy 13 ; 12+1

Air Attune, LStrike, LOrb, ChainL (drop for Rez Sig of exhaustion worries you or the group needs), Enervating Charge, Blinding Flash, Epidemic, Thunderclap

Sit down with the basecamp (where the monks and wards are) and blunt the charge. Weaken and Blind the 1st Iway to hit the traps/wards and slow down. When his mates catch up, epidemic the Blind/Weak across them. Repeat EC/BF on the 1st warrior and TClap him. Now, when the warriors aren't on the ground they miss 90% and do much less damage when they do hit.

If the monks know how much you blunt the Iway Warriors they will keep the heals up. Your Warriors won't need the heals as they aren't getting damaged often.

All it takes is making the Iway come to the traps and wards. If they don't, slowly move the basecamp in their direction. March foward, set up camp and move to the perimeter. Make sure you move towards their caster base, where their Necros are hiding.

Added thought - Iways only use Rez Sigs. Anti Sig spells/sigs/hexs would throw them off.

If you intend to keep warriors on their ass as well as maintaining weakness and blind on all of them through Epidemic and your only energy management is Air Attune then there's a strong chance you're going to be out of energy very fast, unless you've got someone batterying you, or most of the time you're not doing much at all.

Bloodweasel · Jan 18, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

Bloodweasel...your character is completely useless against any other team as there will be monks removing conditions/your thunderclap. All it takes is for someone to say they've got thunderclap on them and it will be removed a.s.a.p. Thunderclap/epidemic/enervating charge are all pretty horrible. Blinding flash is useful against rspike but that's about it...

Anticasters stop the Airblinder working, same as any other mage. Condition and Hex removal work on any Conditions/Hexs, not just the Airblinder. Its what ANY Conditions/Hexer will be countered by. What makes the Airblinder great against IWAY is that they don't take Monks. It makes it no less effective against a Balanced than any other Negative Caster. And the Airblinder still has a good range of airspike spells.

And its great fun to weaken/blind a warrior, see the condition removals start on them, then Epidemic the Conditions to all the Warrior's mates. Suddenly the Monk/Mesmer has to remove them from a group. Makes that asap a fairly long time, far longer than the recycle in ECharge and BFlash.

lord of shadow · Jan 18, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

surely all u need is a necro with a couple of corpse spells
soul feast=no iway

yangster · Jan 18, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord of shadow

surely all u need is a necro with a couple of corpse spells
soul feast=no iway

Have you ever played or seen iway? If it was that easy then it wouldn't be fotm. Consuming corpse spells only help prevent wells, not the effect iway skill can do.